WAAAAAAAY too much Bass

I have a 98 mustang Cobra with the mach 460 stereo. I also have a 12" Kicker Solobaric in a sealed 1 cubic ft enclosure with a 600w amp.
Before my KD-s100 purchase i had another JVC receiver as well. The sound was pretty good from it, but the volume knob got all twitchy, so i had to find a new receiver.
Enter the KD-S100. I installed the receiver and installed the software. OMG there is way too much bass.
I have bass set on "0" and the sub out set on "1", and it's still waaaay to powerful.
Any way that i could turn it down?

I think I may need to return the unit, I just can't get a happy medium with the bass. No matter what i set the gain to on my amp, the bass still sounds terrible.
Any ideas?
SOME have gotten the other 2 files emailed to them, but others have been turned down. Who's leg do i have to hump to get a copy of the files? I love everything else, but the bass is way to overwhelming and i can't keep this thing if it's going to stay this way.

go to this website and toward the bottom click on get profiles.
http://www.bongioviacoustics.com/kds100beta.html

fred27tt wrote:

go to this website and toward the bottom click on get profiles.
http://www.bongioviacoustics.com/kds100beta.html

I did that already, and the link is no good!

It says "page not found"!!!

badass98svt wrote:

fred27tt wrote:

go to this website and toward the bottom click on get profiles.
http://www.bongioviacoustics.com/kds100beta.html

I did that already, and the link is no good!

It says "page not found"!!!

It's fixed now! Go back to the page and submit your request. Try the DPS VAR SUB 01. That should solve the bass problem.

xaqmusic wrote:

badass98svt wrote:

fred27tt wrote:

go to this website and toward the bottom click on get profiles.
http://www.bongioviacoustics.com/kds100beta.html

I did that already, and the link is no good!

It says "page not found"!!!

It's fixed now! Go back to the page and submit your request. Try the DPS VAR SUB 01. That should solve the bass problem.

WILL DO...Thanx guys. i'll let you know!

Just wanted to let you guys know that I installed the Sub var 1 disc and it is much improved! Still seems to be no midrange. Without me trying all 6, is there another that may suit me better? Should i stick to the 3 sub ones?

Also, is there a well known or specific song that good for testing/tuning the stereo?

Thanx for all the help thus far!

badass98svt wrote:

Just wanted to let you guys know that I installed the Sub var 1 disc and it is much improved! Still seems to be no midrange. Without me trying all 6, is there another that may suit me better? Should i stick to the 3 sub ones?

Also, is there a well known or specific song that good for testing/tuning the stereo?

Thanx for all the help thus far!

In some situations the low mids can be compensated for by turning up the subwoofer crossover to 150Hz or higher. That's the idea behind SUB 01. SUB 02 is not as bright and has more mids so that could be a better option for you.

I tend to test with songs that are very aggressive such as Nirvana's In Utero or NERD or some other newer music. Then I fine tune using older material like Frank Sinatra or Beach Boys. Really, you should be testing with your favorite songs! Make them sound the way YOU want them to.

xaqmusic wrote:

badass98svt wrote:

Just wanted to let you guys know that I installed the Sub var 1 disc and it is much improved! Still seems to be no midrange. Without me trying all 6, is there another that may suit me better? Should i stick to the 3 sub ones?

Also, is there a well known or specific song that good for testing/tuning the stereo?

Thanx for all the help thus far!

In some situations the low mids can be compensated for by turning up the subwoofer crossover to 150Hz or higher. That's the idea behind SUB 01. SUB 02 is not as bright and has more mids so that could be a better option for you.

I tend to test with songs that are very aggressive such as Nirvana's In Utero or NERD or some other newer music. Then I fine tune using older material like Frank Sinatra or Beach Boys. Really, you should be testing with your favorite songs! Make them sound the way YOU want them to.

OK I'll try the Sub 2 next.

I always tune it to my personal music, just wasn't sure if there was a specific song that worked best.

Also, what is SLOPE? What changes when I adjust it 6-18. Sure wish there was some sort of midrange adjustment and not just bass/treble

Slope is how aggressive the crossover is. A 3db difference is universally accepted as what it takes to either double or halve the volume. In other words, to make a note sound twice as loud it has to be 3db louder, and the reverse is true. To make something sound half as loud is must be 3db quieter. I think what we perceive to be double is closer to 5db but I wont argue with the scientists on this one.

So a 6db crossover is twice as much "volume reduction" as 3db and 12db is 4times as strong, 18db is 6times as strong. The "slope" is the frequency cutoff rate shown in graph form. it shows how quickly and/or aggressive the cutoff of the crossover is.

It is not so important with subwoofers that are in either sealed or ported enclosures, but it is VERY important for tweeters as any frequencies that are too low that are high powered can destroy the sensitive driver inside.

To help your mids in DPS sub 01 I would make sure that your crossover slope is set to 6db in the deck and set the crossover frequency fairly high, like around 120 or the next one up. Then try it again. gradually lower the crossover frequency for the sub one setting at a time until you get the mix you like. You can also play with the slope if it may be a bit too much to choke the upper frequencies a little more.

Honestly this isn't anything that can be picked up really quickly and can take a lot of research to figure out. The good thing is that Bongiovi has guys who are not only technicians but ALSO musicians working on this stuff. And to be honest, that relieves me, since they know what it should sound like "musically" not just "volumetrically".

I remember several years ago going into a local car audio shop and being told that I needed this Bass enhancer that took whatever the bottom note was being generated and added another note 1 and 1/2 octaves below that note.

Sounds cool right? however, the moron (technician) who came up with this device had no clue that in most music, a note reproduced an octave and 1/2 lower usually doesn't fit musically, tonally, melodically or harmonically and ends up sounding like total CRAP! Imagine listening to the most beautiful music you've ever heard with some big fat guy farting REALLY LOUDLY in the seat next to you and you'll get the idea. It may shake your seat but it sounds like he just crapped himself. Yet these guys thought it was the total SHIZNIT! It sounded like total CRAP but you could never tell these guys at the store that, since all they knew was that it was making their asses vibrate. BLECH!!

So was that WAY more than you wanted to hear?

Vanguard92 wrote:

Slope is how aggressive the crossover is. A 3db difference is universally accepted as what it takes to either double or halve the volume. In other words, to make a note sound twice as loud it has to be 3db louder, and the reverse is true. To make something sound half as loud is must be 3db quieter. I think what we perceive to be double is closer to 5db but I wont argue with the scientists on this one.

So a 6db crossover is twice as much "volume reduction" as 3db and 12db is 4times as strong, 18db is 6times as strong. The "slope" is the frequency cutoff rate shown in graph form. it shows how quickly and/or aggressive the cutoff of the crossover is.

It is not so important with subwoofers that are in either sealed or ported enclosures, but it is VERY important for tweeters as any frequencies that are too low that are high powered can destroy the sensitive driver inside.

To help your mids in DPS sub 01 I would make sure that your crossover slope is set to 6db in the deck and set the crossover frequency fairly high, like around 120 or the next one up. Then try it again. gradually lower the crossover frequency for the sub one setting at a time until you get the mix you like. You can also play with the slope if it may be a bit too much to choke the upper frequencies a little more.

Honestly this isn't anything that can be picked up really quickly and can take a lot of research to figure out. The good thing is that Bongiovi has guys who are not only technicians but ALSO musicians working on this stuff. And to be honest, that relieves me, since they know what it should sound like "musically" not just "volumetrically".

I remember several years ago going into a local car audio shop and being told that I needed this Bass enhancer that took whatever the bottom note was being generated and added another note 1 and 1/2 octaves below that note.

Sounds cool right? however, the moron (technician) who came up with this device had no clue that in most music, a note reproduced an octave and 1/2 lower usually doesn't fit musically, tonally, melodically or harmonically and ends up sounding like total CRAP! Imagine listening to the most beautiful music you've ever heard with some big fat guy farting REALLY LOUDLY in the seat next to you and you'll get the idea. It may shake your seat but it sounds like he just crapped himself. Yet these guys thought it was the total SHIZNIT! It sounded like total CRAP but you could never tell these guys at the store that, since all they knew was that it was making their asses vibrate. BLECH!!

So was that WAY more than you wanted to hear?

Perfect. 'm currently running the sub1 and I'll play with the crossover a bit. I'm just a firm believer that my sub should be playing nothing above 80db. That's what my midrange speakers are for, ya know. raising the sub crossover is just a band-aid, ya know what i mean?

badass98svt wrote:

Vanguard92 wrote:

It is not so important with subwoofers that are in either sealed or ported enclosures,

To help your mids in DPS sub 01 I would make sure that your crossover slope is set to 6db in the deck and set the crossover frequency fairly high, like around 120 or the next one up. Then try it again. gradually lower the crossover frequency for the sub one setting at a time until you get the mix you like. You can also play with the slope if it may be a bit too much to choke the upper frequencies a little more.

Perfect. 'm currently running the sub1 and I'll play with the crossover a bit. I'm just a firm believer that my sub should be playing nothing above 80db. That's what my midrange speakers are for, ya know. raising the sub crossover is just a band-aid, ya know what i mean?

Well.... how big are your subs? tens, twelves, eights? Unless you're using a really aggressive crossover, they are playing those notes above 80Hz anyway, just not loud enough for you to hear them in the cabin through the trunk. It won't damage them, and your only allowing them to play some of the things they are already playing just a little louder, to fill in the bottom half of the mids around 100-120Hz. Unless you're running 12 and bigger this shouldn't be a problem. 12's start to get really inefficient up there.

I'm going to be running a couple 10's in my trunk in a sealed enclosure. 10's are about perfect for nice tight bass without giving up the lower registers. I've used 12's before but always ended up running an eight with them to get back the tight sound you get from the upper mid bass. 12's and bigger may be loud and low, but the sound is...."floppy". No definition! No precision.

Vanguard92 wrote:

badass98svt wrote:

Vanguard92 wrote:

It is not so important with subwoofers that are in either sealed or ported enclosures,

To help your mids in DPS sub 01 I would make sure that your crossover slope is set to 6db in the deck and set the crossover frequency fairly high, like around 120 or the next one up. Then try it again. gradually lower the crossover frequency for the sub one setting at a time until you get the mix you like. You can also play with the slope if it may be a bit too much to choke the upper frequencies a little more.

Perfect. 'm currently running the sub1 and I'll play with the crossover a bit. I'm just a firm believer that my sub should be playing nothing above 80db. That's what my midrange speakers are for, ya know. raising the sub crossover is just a band-aid, ya know what i mean?

Well.... how big are your subs? tens, twelves, eights? Unless you're using a really aggressive crossover, they are playing those notes above 80Hz anyway, just not loud enough for you to hear them in the cabin through the trunk. It won't damage them, and your only allowing them to play some of the things they are already playing just a little louder, to fill in the bottom half of the mids around 100-120Hz. Unless you're running 12 and bigger this shouldn't be a problem. 12's start to get really inefficient up there.

I'm going to be running a couple 10's in my trunk in a sealed enclosure. 10's are about perfect for nice tight bass without giving up the lower registers. I've used 12's before but always ended up running an eight with them to get back the tight sound you get from the upper mid bass. 12's and bigger may be loud and low, but the sound is...."floppy". No definition! No precision.

I'm running one 12" Kicker Solobaric is a 1 cubic ft sealed encolsure. My bass response was always "tight", until I picked up this new receiver. It's turning into a real pain to tune in correctly. I don't understand....a $650 radio, but NO midrange adjustments? Why? Was someone sleeping or what?

Just remember this was supposed to be a factory addon with profiles that were vehicle specific. a vehicle specific profile negates the necessity for an equalizer, so you wouldn't need any treble and bass adjustment other than to have a fancy bell and whistle to play with.

When whatever deal fell through at the top, JVC got stuck with thousands of units and now needs to dump them, and apparently at near cost. I got mine for $105 through a wholesaler here in Denver. $150 on Crutchfield? I think we are reaping the rewards of someone elses misfortune. At least we have technicians/musicians willing to step up and support the hardware.

And maybe someday the licensing issue will be cleared and the OEM profiles will be released and we will get the EXACT profile that was made for our car. Considering it took in the neighborhood of 8hrs per vehicle from what I hear, to make the profile by using the actual vehicle, it would be really cool to get my ears on them.

Vanguard92 wrote:

Just remember this was supposed to be a factory addon with profiles that were vehicle specific. a vehicle specific profile negates the necessity for an equalizer, so you wouldn't need any treble and bass adjustment other than to have a fancy bell and whistle to play with.

When whatever deal fell through at the top, JVC got stuck with thousands of units and now needs to dump them, and apparently at near cost. I got mine for $105 through a wholesaler here in Denver. $150 on Crutchfield? I think we are reaping the rewards of someone elses misfortune. At least we have technicians/musicians willing to step up and support the hardware.

And maybe someday the licensing issue will be cleared and the OEM profiles will be released and we will get the EXACT profile that was made for our car. Considering it took in the neighborhood of 8hrs per vehicle from what I hear, to make the profile by using the actual vehicle, it would be really cool to get my ears on them.

Oh, I agree $150 is a dmn fair price with all the bells and whistles it has. But. let's face it, it's pretty much useless if the sound is just all muddy.

I'm hoping we all can get them setup correctly, because i really do like the new receiver, just aggrivating trying to get it setup right.

If I may add to the crossover conversation:

Many consumer audio products do use the subwoofer to recreate frequencies well above 80Hz. Most home audio surround systems have tiny speakers that can only get down to about 250Hz so they tune the subwoofer up to take over where the small speakers leave off. Keep in mind, our ears can really only localize (place in the stereo image) frequencies 1000Hz and higher. For most situations our subwoofers are "invisible" and our ears place the sound where the higher frequencies are generated. I'm of the opinion that if you have a bi-amped system (the head unit's amps with a separate sub amp) then by all means share the load as much as possible. That is why SUB 01 sounds pretty thin with no subwoofer. I made that profile with the capabilities of the KD-S100 in mind and eeked out every ounce of power from the unit at the frequencies it is most efficient. Remember, it takes MUCH more power to reproduce low frequencies compared to highs. I tune my subs like this:

1) listen to the sub all by itself at full range (no crossover). I usually use Skinny Puppy or some other electronic music with very clean bottom for this.

2) sub enclosures (especially ported ones) are tuned to a specific frequency for which they are most efficient. 40-80Hz I consider subharmonic frequencies (808 kick drums, "quad" or rumble) 80-100Hz are "kick" frequencies (they are high enough to "knock" you in the chest with the bass drum). 100-200Hz are "bass guitar" frequencies where you hear actual notes the lower instruments play. So you should hear the "note" your sub is tuned to very clearly. As long as the sub has no built-in passive crossover, you should be able to hear muffled voices and plenty of other sounds as well.

3) Usually the speaker and enclosure will generate harmonics or other "notes" above the note it is tuned to. I listen for those by trying to notice muddiness in bass lines, boominess in the voice or a general honky sound. I then begin to turn the crossover frequency down until I get to a "sweet spot" where most of the voice is gone and the bass line and kick drum clean up nicely. The "Slope" control is how sharp (in dB per octave) your crossover affects the signal from the crossover frequency on down. This in turn affects the harmonics (higher slope number = more pronounced upper harmonics) so that control can be used to as well to shape the sound of your sub.

4) After this process, the sub should sound big, ballsy and tight and very musical all on its own. I find my 12" sub in the studio sounds great at about 150Hz when used in conjunction with my NS-10M studio monitors. We have our Bryston crossover (or the sub's internal one) set to a 6dB/oct curve to keep the subwoofer's tone natural and to blend it into the low end of the NS-10. I designed VAR SUB 01 with the sound of NS-10's in mind to kind of re-create that particular studio sound in the car. The high mids are fairly well pronounced and the bass is rolled off at about 100Hz. The DPS processing is quite aggressive in this profile which should allow for very nice performance on low cost drivers. I find the best drivers are your standard paper cones with a decent magnet.

5) Once the subwoofer sounds good, turn it all the way down and turn on the speakers in the cab. Set the KD-S100 with no bass or trebel boost. Play the same songs and find the approximate listening volume you normally use. It will sound bright and weird now so slowly turn the sub back up until you reach that magical "sweet spot" where the music "comes back together" and the sub is a natural extension of the cabin speakers. If at all possible to do safely, try this whole process while someone else is driving for you on the highway. Road noise is a HUGE factor in car audio that most people never take into account while tweaking their systems in the driveway. Your ears will automatically take the road noise into account as you tune your vehicle so when you are happy at 50mph, you will be happy in the parking lot! Also keep in mind that the subwoofer output is the only output on the KD-S100 that has no DPS processing.

I'm trying to speak in musical term instead of engineering terms because in the end, that's all that really matters. It does take some time and patience to get the hang of this stuff and hey, it's also totally subjective! If anyone has any other techniques, I'd be happy to hear them.

What I want to know is how to setup the gain on my amp if I'm using the head unit to control the sub volume. Luckily the Soundstream Amp I have has a remote gain knob I will have wired into my dash so I don't have to climb into the trunk to adjust the thing. The amp will be running 2 JL Audio 10W0-8's in a sealed enclosure. I prefer the harmonics of an 8-ohm driver more because I listen to mostly acoustic music. Jazz, Classical, Drum Corps.

I've heard that to set it perfect you have to use an oscilloscope, but I don't have one and I'm not going to get one. I'm not gonna worry about the exact instant and frequency that causes the amp to clip and go into a square wave or shutoff.

There is a lot of voodoo out there on how to set your gains. Any definitive answer?

I wasn't gonna get into harmonics, resultant tones and overtones. It's WAY complicated and I even took a course on it back in college. It's extremely complex to figure overtones, but resultant tones are fairly easy. The difference between two frequencies is the resultant tone. Which can either reinforce or detract from the original frequencies. It's hard to make people believe that the lowest notes you hear from a pipe organ are actually created by 2 tiny pipes that only dogs can hear individually. For more info on Harmonics and intonation check Chris Leuba's book, "Study in Musical Intonation". Not long, but an AWESOME read and basically the musicians bible for those interested in such things. I wish that electronics engineers who work designing new audio gear would read this book. It would open many eyes (and ears).

Vanguard92 wrote:

What I want to know is how to setup the gain on my amp if I'm using the head unit to control the sub volume...

I've heard that to set it perfect you have to use an oscilloscope, but I don't have one and I'm not going to get one. I'm not gonna worry about the exact instant and frequency that causes the amp to clip and go into a square wave or shutoff.

There is a lot of voodoo out there on how to set your gains. Any definitive answer?

Should this be a new topic??

Vanguard92 wrote:

Vanguard92 wrote:

What I want to know is how to setup the gain on my amp if I'm using the head unit to control the sub volume...

I've heard that to set it perfect you have to use an oscilloscope, but I don't have one and I'm not going to get one. I'm not gonna worry about the exact instant and frequency that causes the amp to clip and go into a square wave or shutoff.

There is a lot of voodoo out there on how to set your gains. Any definitive answer?

Should this be a new topic??

Sure. I think this is important. I'll start a topic called "sub woofer science" in consumer audio/electronics. The KD-S100 forum is getting pretty cluttered. We will be switching to a new forum on our server pretty soon so things will be cleaned up considerable. Really cool posts, Vanguard!

xaqmusic wrote:

If I may add to the crossover conversation:

Many consumer audio products do use the subwoofer to recreate frequencies well above 80Hz. Most home audio surround systems have tiny speakers that can only get down to about 250Hz so they tune the subwoofer up to take over where the small speakers leave off. Keep in mind, our ears can really only localize (place in the stereo image) frequencies 1000Hz and higher. For most situations our subwoofers are "invisible" and our ears place the sound where the higher frequencies are generated. I'm of the opinion that if you have a bi-amped system (the head unit's amps with a separate sub amp) then by all means share the load as much as possible. That is why SUB 01 sounds pretty thin with no subwoofer. I made that profile with the capabilities of the KD-S100 in mind and eeked out every ounce of power from the unit at the frequencies it is most efficient. Remember, it takes MUCH more power to reproduce low frequencies compared to highs. I tune my subs like this:

1) listen to the sub all by itself at full range (no crossover). I usually use Skinny Puppy or some other electronic music with very clean bottom for this.

2) sub enclosures (especially ported ones) are tuned to a specific frequency for which they are most efficient. 40-80Hz I consider subharmonic frequencies (808 kick drums, "quad" or rumble) 80-100Hz are "kick" frequencies (they are high enough to "knock" you in the chest with the bass drum). 100-200Hz are "bass guitar" frequencies where you hear actual notes the lower instruments play. So you should hear the "note" your sub is tuned to very clearly. As long as the sub has no built-in passive crossover, you should be able to hear muffled voices and plenty of other sounds as well.

3) Usually the speaker and enclosure will generate harmonics or other "notes" above the note it is tuned to. I listen for those by trying to notice muddiness in bass lines, boominess in the voice or a general honky sound. I then begin to turn the crossover frequency down until I get to a "sweet spot" where most of the voice is gone and the bass line and kick drum clean up nicely. The "Slope" control is how sharp (in dB per octave) your crossover affects the signal from the crossover frequency on down. This in turn affects the harmonics (higher slope number = more pronounced upper harmonics) so that control can be used to as well to shape the sound of your sub.

4) After this process, the sub should sound big, ballsy and tight and very musical all on its own. I find my 12" sub in the studio sounds great at about 150Hz when used in conjunction with my NS-10M studio monitors. We have our Bryston crossover (or the sub's internal one) set to a 6dB/oct curve to keep the subwoofer's tone natural and to blend it into the low end of the NS-10. I designed VAR SUB 01 with the sound of NS-10's in mind to kind of re-create that particular studio sound in the car. The high mids are fairly well pronounced and the bass is rolled off at about 100Hz. The DPS processing is quite aggressive in this profile which should allow for very nice performance on low cost drivers. I find the best drivers are your standard paper cones with a decent magnet.

5) Once the subwoofer sounds good, turn it all the way down and turn on the speakers in the cab. Set the KD-S100 with no bass or trebel boost. Play the same songs and find the approximate listening volume you normally use. It will sound bright and weird now so slowly turn the sub back up until you reach that magical "sweet spot" where the music "comes back together" and the sub is a natural extension of the cabin speakers. If at all possible to do safely, try this whole process while someone else is driving for you on the highway. Road noise is a HUGE factor in car audio that most people never take into account while tweaking their systems in the driveway. Your ears will automatically take the road noise into account as you tune your vehicle so when you are happy at 50mph, you will be happy in the parking lot! Also keep in mind that the subwoofer output is the only output on the KD-S100 that has no DPS processing.

I'm trying to speak in musical term instead of engineering terms because in the end, that's all that really matters. It does take some time and patience to get the hang of this stuff and hey, it's also totally subjective! If anyone has any other techniques, I'd be happy to hear them.

Seriously, AWESOME post broseph

I just have 1 question. How do i play ONLY the sub. Can i accomplish this by turning the bass/treble all the way down on the receiver?

I will give this a shot as soon as I hear from you.

I've got it pretty well tuned in right now while usin the Sub1 disc. I'd love to fine tune it using your method though.

Currently, the sub x-over on the reciever is set at 160, think that's too high? The next lowest is 125.

badass98svt wrote:

Currently, the sub x-over on the reciever is set at 160, think that's too high? The next lowest is 125.

Try it and see if you like it. My opinion is 125 should be enough if you're using the 6db slope, but I'm not in your car or using your ears. It all comes down to what you like.

Vanguard92 wrote:

badass98svt wrote:

Currently, the sub x-over on the reciever is set at 160, think that's too high? The next lowest is 125.

Try it and see if you like it. My opinion is 125 should be enough if you're using the 6db slope, but I'm not in your car or using your ears. It all comes down to what you like.

How do I make it so only the sub can be heard???

Far as I know, you can't do it from the head unit. Gotta ask Xaq if he knows.

badass98svt wrote:

Vanguard92 wrote:

badass98svt wrote:

Currently, the sub x-over on the reciever is set at 160, think that's too high? The next lowest is 125.

Try it and see if you like it. My opinion is 125 should be enough if you're using the 6db slope, but I'm not in your car or using your ears. It all comes down to what you like.

How do I make it so only the sub can be heard???

I know this is difficult without the proper hardware. Our tuning rigs and software have speaker mutes. However, I would suggest disconnecting the easiest to reach speakers. if they are in the rear deck for example, just unplug them from the trunk (make sure you note which wire goes to which terminal!) and fade the unit to the back. You could also disconnect just the right rear speaker and fade the unit to the rear and pan all the way to the right. Since the sub output on the KD-S100 is the only output not affected by the DPS it will now be playing all by itself.
Another suggestion (if you are using an external crossover or one built into your sub) is to feed it with a signal from a portable CD player. Since you should be setting the level of the sub (after you have tuned it) with all speakers playing, any differences from using a portable device to tune your sub should be pretty inconsequential.
Just be sure to use the same group of songs to tune your sub AND set it's level relative to the other speakers.

Hope that helps!

xAq